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change to experimental registration and impact on market value


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seems controversial to change to experimental to install safety equipment.  but if you were to puchase a used plane and had a choice of one that had safety equipment installed with option of easily adding other features you would like, wouldnt that plane have more value to you than a factory certified plane without ability to make changes or with safety equipment?

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Probably a controversial topic, but if I were a buyer, i'd be a bit more concerned about an experimental aircraft unless I knew the owner.  I'd have less concern about an owner built or converted CRUZ aircraft as the design is well proven, but I'd have a lot more concern if it were an aircraft requiring a lot of owner build-time.  For example, I'd have more concern about a Velocity aircraft than I would about a Vans RV aircraft.  (The skills required for composite construction, vacuum bagging to ensure good resin penetration, etc. would be of concern to me.)

 

I've seen some aircraft that were S-LSA that, quite frankly, were frightening.  Undocumented changes to the aircraft and non-descriptive service entries into the logbook are things that I saw that really introduced considerable concern and reduced my offer price.  

 

Conversely, I think there are some Experimental aircraft out there where the logs were meticulous.  I'd feel a lot more comfortable with those aircraft than the above S-LSA.

 

Ultimately, I do think that going E-LSA would reduce the number of buyers that would be interested in your (or my) aircraft.  But in my opinion, so long as you maintain complete logbook entries, it should be fairly easy to overcome most buyers' concerns.  

 

To come back around and answer your question about "value to you" regarding an E-LSA with safety equipment vs. a S-LSA without:  absolutely.  To me, the value of an aircraft having the latest safety equipment (ADS-B, synthetic vision, harmonized avionics to reduce pilot workload) is greater than a factory S-LSA sporting basic equipment.  

 

Note that some manufacturers are willing to listen to the "voice of the customer" for new and legacy aircraft, so those aircraft manufacturers are going to start leaching away customers from established manufacturers like CSA.

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thanks for the comprehensive answer and common sense of complete accurate records. i do not want to make changes to airframe and powerplant or different type landing gear such as tail dragger from nosewheel.  only reason is to install avionics for adbs out. if this is only entry on log book after changing to experimental, then future buyers should feel better i think.

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To answer your question knowing what I know now about LOA's and how they work, my answer is a resounding YES.

And yes it is a controversial topic but in my opinion as long as it's maintained "by the book" by skilled mechanics or technicians and well documented I'd buy one in an instant. It's all about doing your due diligence and know the aircraft that you are buying.

When you tell someone it's "experimental" they immediately think "who built it?" The SportCruiser is still a "factory built" plane. Everyone one in the US was factory built. There is an enormous difference between and S-LSA converted to E-LSA and a E-AB aircraft. I know my S-LSA converted plane was built to the highest standards possible by the factory, no corners were cut during construction. You can never say that about an E-AB aircraft. You have to be sure that a buyer understands this first then explain to them the conversion and why it was done.

As Bob pointed out, you now have the ability to upgrade old and obsolete avionics, add the latest safety features like ADS-B or AOA. Along with the many other upgrades you can do that you are not allowed to do as an S-LSA without factory permission. And as we all now know from experience this just isn't going to happen with CSA.

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Having converted our CRUZ factory built S-LSA to

 

an Experimental E-LSA,

 

my comments:

 

1) extremely pleased with the E-LSA result. No regrets.

 

2) key changes to date - added the proven Dynon angle of attack AOA sensing probe for awareness of "lift margin" in all flying scenarios - a USA FAA recommended safety upgrade. Also eliminated the Rotax internal alternator's Ducati rectifier/regulator from an expected source of summertime failures in our aircraft's DC electrical system.

 

3) no longer have to consider the long time frame (sometimes infinite) and struggle - even with TSO certified Avionics, proven, available tested, qualified Certified equipment....

to getting a manufacturer's approval Letter of Authorization for the "next" change for improved safety, reliability, more....

 

4) continue to use well trained certified AIrframe & Powerplant A&P Maintenance folks

to perform all maintenance and upgrades with well documented logbooks.

 

5) as our aircraft gets more capable, why would we want to sell it ?

 

6) I no longer look at my monthly EAA Experimental Aircraft Association as "those other Pilots with very desirable Experimental aircraft with state of the art X, Y, Z....". We own an Experimental aircraft ! My EAA membership card makes sense !

 

7) the aircraft still flies very well and the Rotax engine, control surfaces, flying qualities, ramp appeal, production build quality, etc., are still top of the line in the Light Sport Aircraft world

 

8) the future state of our airplane is not limited by someone I have never met who

 

A- doesn't understand or apparently care much about the USA FAA rules

And

B- doesn't respond to "already sold" aircraft owner's customer input.

 

And, in fairness to Czech Sport Aircraft, they produce a fine Special - Light Sport Aircraft. The production design of the basic aircraft, the craftsmanship exhibited by the Czech production line workers, the long proud history of Czech production of aircraft in Kunovice is outstanding.

 

But today, the "aircraft" is more than just the sturdy, easy to fly aluminum structure and the strength of the rivets. The installed Avionics is in many cases, a major discriminator to an S-LSA prospective owner. And there are HUNDREDS of "already sold" CRUZ S-LSA out there - the ability to upgrade these S-LSA aircraft with manufacturer supported LOA's and IPC/Maintenance manual "instructions" (protecting the legal USA FAA validity of the owner's

S-LSA Special Airworthiness Certificates) could extend the desirability of the entire SportCruiser line of S-LSA's in the USA market. The "problem" or perhaps better said, "CSA's choice" emanating from the Czech Republic is way beyond just limited LOA support for S-LSA USA FAA "ADS-B OUT Compliance". In my opinion, continual upgrades of Dynon, Garmin, .... avionics and new equipment, legal to install on "already sold" CRUZ S-LSA USA aircraft will make the "already sold" SportCruiser S-LSA aircraft, even the "Legacy" CZAW produced SportCruisers, much more desirable, and keep the CRUZ S-LSA resale value up, and support the entire line of CRUZ S-LSA's, including sales of new production CRUZ S-LSAs.

 

9) today, the Experimental E-LSA remains "THE GREAT ESCAPE CLAUSE" for CRUZ S-LSA Owners in the USA FAA regulated Light Sport Aircraft world.

 

Thanks EAA !

 

We can now plan ahead for inclusion of upgrades like IFR certified Avionics, the next generation of available equipment from Dynon, GARMIN, ...., more...., and the aircraft upgrade road map is now controlled by the aircraft owner .... what could be better ?

 

D

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I agree with all Dave's comments, NO REGRETS AT ALL! I love my E-LSA aircraft. CSA's and Rotax time limits, SA's and SB's are mere "suggestions" now.

 

I'm in the process of moving to Clearwater and I'll be joining my local EAA chapter at the next meeting in just over a week. Exciting. 

 

CSA does make the best LSA on the market in my opinion but unfortunately it stops there. 

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I too am waiting to see if there's an announcement either at Sun n Fun, or at Oshkosh regarding LOA from CSA.  But if there isn't (or I'm not keen on the presented solution), I'll go E-LSA at my next annual.  

 

I suppose I'm just delaying the inevitable as I'd want many of the things that Shawn, David and Karen have mentioned (AoA pitot tube, Garmin Aera 660, etc.) or even replacing my D100/120 with dual 7" Skyview screens.  (Let's see if my corporate bonus next year will support that!)

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  • 2 months later...

This is an old thread, but I thought I'd comment anyway since I just converted my Flight Design CTSW to E-LSA status.  

Unlike CSA, FD is willing to issue LOAs (they call them MRAs - Major Repair/Alteration Letters).  But they charge for them.  For tiny, insignificant changes like adding a piece of equipment that is already installed in other CTs, the cost is a $75 fee.  For more involved changes they charge for an "engineering study" to see what the change might do, which can be $500-1500.  I was quoted $900 for an MRA to change my straight pitot to an AoA pitot to use the AoA display in my D-100.  I said "never mind".  Note that most of this comes from FG Gmbh in Germany, the FD USA guys are very accommodating and have a "sure, sounds reasonable" attitude, but they are constrained by the German folks.

I took the Light Sport Repairman Inspection rating course, and so now I'm legal to do condition inspections as well as any other maintenance on my airplane.  In the past month I have completed my condition inspection, as well as the five year Rotax rubber change, and replaced the motor mounts on my airplane.  It was time consuming work that requires attention to detail, but wasn't particularly difficult.  I'm always careful to consult "experts" before tackling any new task, to make sure I use the correct parts, techniques, and miss any "gotchas" in the process.  

As for lost sales value going to E-LSA, I had two DARs tell me they didn't think it would affect sales price at all, as long as I didn't make major or obviously sketchy modifications.  Also, so far just in the just the short time the airplane has been E-LSA, I have saved about $2500 by doing maintenance myself instead of paying to have it done.  Given that and what I have averages annually on maintenance, I am very confident that any potential loss of sales value down the road will be more than offset by maintenance savings over the years I plan to own the airplane.  

I'm very keen on the E-LSA option, but obviously everybody has different skills and priorities, and some don't want to take on maintenance.  But for those willing, I believe the financial considerations are a non-issue.  I'm not even convinced they are a major problem for those choosing to continue paying for maintenance on an E-LSA.  I think the key in either case is work that is performed correctly and well documented, so that the next owner is confident of the provenance of the airplane and its maintenance and upkeep.

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Very good info FlyingMonkey and thanks for your insight. Interesting they charge for these MRA's. CSA should consider this as a new income stream.:P 

I am 100% in agreement with you on all your points. I also bounce my plans off my LSRMA for things I want to tackle and if it's a larger repair or mod I'll get his assistance and input. I also have an A&P a few hangars down if needed although the LSRMA is far better. It does surprise me how many owners/pilots won't even change their own oil.

Everything I've done has improved the safety and make my workload less (which increases safety). Also having the latest avionics in my opinion can only increase the value of any aircraft. All my upgrades have been well documented.

Going E-LSA was the best thing I did for my plane and my sanity after having dealt with CSA to try for an LOA. :D

 

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46 minutes ago, ShawnM said:

Going E-LSA was the best thing I did for my plane and my sanity after having dealt with CSA to try for an LOA. :D

 

I hear that!  It always annoyed me to no end that when I had trouble with my airplane, I was always at the mercy of somebody else, either the factory or an LSRM/A&P, and had to work things out on their schedule.  It's very freeing that when something breaks or needs to be changed, I can fix it as fast or as slowly as I choose!

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20 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

It always annoyed me to no end that when I had trouble with my airplane, I was always at the mercy of somebody else, either the factory or an LSRM/A&P, and had to work things out on their schedule.  It's very freeing that when something breaks or needs to be changed, I can fix it as fast or as slowly as I choose!

I couldn't have said it better!

I'm FREE! :D

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I really like what Shawn has done with his center panel, and I'm very anxious to have ADS-B installed.  Thus, if I want to make flying my aircraft safer through enabling the AoA feature on the Dynon D100 EFIS, adding ADS-B, and equipment that reduces my workload, I currently have no choice but to go E-LSA.   

I don't know why I'm waiting for Cruiser Aircraft's announcement at Oshkosh... maybe because that's my mental "line in the sand."  But I think I'm already 95-99% convinced that my plane is headed toward a future as an E-LSA.

Ideas I'm playing with if (when?) I go E-LSA include the Zipper Big Bore kit for the 912 ULS.  Since I will be flying reasonably close to gross weight with full fuel (and definitely at gross weight with a passenger), and I have a desire to frequent Phoenix and Prescott, Arizona, having extra power to help with high density altitude is a plus.  15% increase (to 115 horsepower) is a good bump in power, and I understand the billet aluminum cylinder heads do a better job at cooling than the stock, cast aluminum heads due to the greater density of the material.  And as an added bonus, the assembly will be 3 - 4 pounds lighter than the stock Rotax parts.

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I have a few projects I've started and want to wrap them up soon. Right now I need to get my flap controller completed. My new circuit board design will be here next week (finally after 3 revisions) and then I can assemble the controller and do some real world testing. Along with that is swapping out my non manual pull circuit breakers to what the new planes have so i can manually isolate any piece of electrical equipment in case of an issue. Now that I've dug deep into the electrical system with a lot of new avionics I want everything to be the best it can be.

Then I'm installing an AOA and will tie it into the Dynon D-100 like it is designed for. Hello CSA, are you listening? :D

I'm still researching ADS-B out solutions and have narrowed it down to a couple of options and I'm waiting on responses from those manufacturers. I have hardwired my Garmin GDL-39 3D (ADS-B in) into my system and it works wonderfully with the Aera 660. There are so many remote mount options now and they are getting smaller and less expensive everyday.

When I did my new avionics stack I went ahead and added the wiring needed for most ADS-B boxes. Power, ground and the necessary RS-232 lines for communication between it the transponder and the GPS. I'm even adding it's own new circuit breaker when those arrive.

Another project will be changing my nav/strobes to an all LED version. Right now my nav and position lights are LED but the strobes are still the old zenon style. I want to keep the system current draw to a minimum.

Then who knows what.....

 

 

 

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On 6/3/2017 at 0:14 PM, rtk said:

Ideas I'm playing with if (when?) I go E-LSA include the Zipper Big Bore kit for the 912 ULS.  Since I will be flying reasonably close to gross weight with full fuel (and definitely at gross weight with a passenger), and I have a desire to frequent Phoenix and Prescott, Arizona, having extra power to help with high density altitude is a plus.  15% increase (to 115 horsepower) is a good bump in power, and I understand the billet aluminum cylinder heads do a better job at cooling than the stock, cast aluminum heads due to the greater density of the material.  And as an added bonus, the assembly will be 3 - 4 pounds lighter than the stock Rotax parts.

Just food for thought but another option to consider WHEN (NOT IF :D) you convert to E-LSA is an in-flight adjustable prop. The Woodcomp SR3000N is worth looking into as well. You'll get the best of both worlds with lots of power during climb out and then trim for cruise and get better speeds. These are great props with many good reviews online and I've had contact with a guy in the UK who has one on his SportCruiser. It's electrically adjustable from the cockpit as it has it's own instrument in the panel.

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Also to clarify, I don't think you can fly an experimental like your friend's RV-12 under Sport Pilot rules using a DL medical.  Because it no longer meets the LSA definition (which includes a fixed or ground-adjustable prop), it can *never* be made into an LSA.  An aircraft which has *ever* not qualified for LSA at any time during its history can never again be considered an LSA.  

Your friend has essentially created a one-off E-AB RV-12 that no Sport Pilot or pilot under a DL medical can fly legally.  IMO he has significantly diminished the value of his airplane by doing so.  None of the normal target market pilots for the aircraft can fly it, and most pilots with a medical who could fly it would rather spend the same or less money on a higher-performing RV variant.

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I wonder if selling that RV-12 outside of the US might "reset" things?  Maybe to a Canadian pilot as an "Advanced Ultra-Light" aircraft?  Of course this is assuming that Shawn's friend would sell.  It seems that he or she may be keen with the idea of an E-AB with all the features / equipment that he can add himself.

Oshkosh isn't too far away... and I've not heard anything about the CRUZ and ADS-B solutions.  I suppose Cruiser Aircraft will wait until the show rather than drop hints.  And even then, there's no telling if it will apply to the legacy CRUZ aircraft.  Fingers crossed for a positive result, but plans in place if not.

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Bruce, he could if it's not in the log book.....just sayin' :P

Bob, they will have to come up with something for the S-LSA legacy aircraft, there's no way around it for CSA. All the Skyview owners are set with the new 2020 transponder and GPS from Dynon. No LOA needed for them. The Garmin 335 or 345 is the easiest and least intrusive solution for the legacy aircraft. Literally no modifications to the aircraft.

I have not made it up to X35 as we here in Florida have had non stop thunderstorms or rain for what seems like 2 weeks. i'm not complaining as we sure could use it. I'd love to get an update from you on your plane. 

 

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Wow... it looks like the next 10 days is filled with thunderstorms in the Dunnellon area!  Not within my comfort zone, but it appears there might be the opportunity to get up and fly between storms... especially if you have ADS-B and WX.   (HUGE hint to CSA and Cruiser Aircraft!)

My aircraft is safely snuggled into a shared hangar space at X35.  Dave (LSRM-A) is working through the hose change and I'm glad that he's looking everything over carefully as the plane has been sitting for a few years on the ramp.  It will be virtually a brand new plane when he's done with it.  Probably the biggest concern is the foreign material in one of the tanks.  My thoughts are that it was intentionally done, but we're trying to see if it can be cleaned out, or if a tank replacement is in my future.  Will hopefully know in the near future.

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Yup, that's our weather right now.

Is your plane in the quonset hut on the field? That used to be my hangar I shared with another LSA owner. I can only imagine that the tank can be flushed of any and all foreign matter and be good as new again. Thankfully the wings are off and that'll make cleaning them much easier. I'm hoping to get up there soon when the storms subside. We had a short break in the storms today but the girlfriend told me I needed to mow the yard. :D

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2 hours ago, ShawnM said:

We had a short break in the storms today but the girlfriend told me I needed to mow the yard. :D

Are you SURE you're not getting married at some point?  :P  LOL - I'll have thoughts to wake up early and go for a motorcycle ride or go for a flight, but my wife will beat me out of bed in the morning to go for a run while I keep an eye on our 10 year old son.  Then we do "family stuff" when she gets back since everyone's awake.  Hence, no motorcycling, and no flying that day.

Not sure if it's the same place or not... but it is a shared hangar.  Wings are off.  Dave spoke with Patrick Arnzen and the suggestion was to remove the fuel level sensor and flush out the tank.  But with all the baffles, other A&Ps are recommending replacement.  Sigh.

One thought that crossed my mind was the revenue side of owning a SLA.  I suppose one might keep it a S-LSA if you were to lease it back to a flight school and allow the aircraft to earn revenue.  But as 2020 rolls around, if there's no LOA from CSA, I would imagine the ability to lease your S-LSA ends since it's no longer compliant with the 2020 regulation.  So that's bad for existing LSAs since they're all either going to be converted to Experimental if the manufacturer doesn't issue a LOA.  And I wonder if one of the plans is to NOT issue a LOA so those legacy aircraft owners will be forced to either convert or purchase new, compliant S-LSA.  Sometimes I hurt my own brain...  :lol::P

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