What IMPROVEMENTS would you like to see in the CRUZ aircraft ?

[designrs]

Nice job. Thank you David!

[DavePilot]

I talked to Patrick Arnzen this afternoon about his discussion at Oshkosh with Czech Sport Aircraft (CSA) on Letters of Authorizations (LOA's) for future CRUZ Improvements.

 

Patrick said that the folks from Czech Sport Aircraft understand the desire for Letters of Authorizations,  both on the "SCFLIER CRUZ Improvement Wish List" 

and also on "ADS-B OUT/IN Solutions,  especially for older configuration CRUZ Aircraft".

 

Patrick said that the "desire for more Letters of Authorizations" to support the existing CRUZ  fleet was strongly transmitted direct to CSA.    However,  Patrick also 

commented that US Sport Aircraft Does not issue these LOA's,  and we must work through the CSA factory to complete this. This process can take many months.

 

just communicating to the SCFLIER Forum that Patrick Arnzen did his part and passed the messages on direct to the CSA CRUZ factory representatives who were also attending Oshkosh.

[Charlie Lima]

As for Merlinspop, I have a small canopy breaker which is mounted behind the seats, just above where my fire extinguisher is. It has pins in the base of the holder which mount into the carpeting without any adhesive. Velcro would work too. It was like 10$. 

Music Man  could you expand on what you are calling a canopy breaker, and where did you purchase it.  I have been having dreams of landing and flipping upside down.  I was even considering a battery operated Dremmel tool.

[DavePilot]

RE "canopy breaker"

 

You may want to investigate multiple options of devices to bust thru the canopy in case of an inverted landing

 

1) see recent discussion in "Ditching Techniques" in the Flying Techniques topic area

 

And also

 

2) see recent discussion in "Emergency Equipment to be carried......" In the Random Thoughts area

 

Looks like several CRUZ Pilots carry some kind of device

to open an egress hole in the canopy

in case of an inverted landing with the

Canopy impossible to open.....

 

See pics for detailed discussion SCFLIER FORUM topic locations of 1) and 2) above

[DavePilot]

FYI to SCFLIER Forum members....

 

a letter sent via email to Thomas Schrade of Cruiser Aircraft, Inc.

 

 

Thomas Schrade :

 

I assume you are attending the 

 

US SPORT AVIATION EXPO

this Wednesday through Saturday, January 25-28, 2017 at KSEF Sebring, Florida.
 

 

last year,  in June and July of 2016,   members of the SCFLIER SportCruiser forum participated in a forum discussion,  "voting",  and ranking for

 the most desired improvements to the SportCruiser line of CRUZ Type aircraft.

 

The "Top 5" Improvements desired by SCFLIER Forum Voters for the CRUZ Aircraft are:

1. Letter of Authorization from CSA to allow incorporation of the Dynon Angle of Attack Probe to feed D-100 and SkyView AOA Displays
2. Improved Cruise Speed and Climb Performance
3. Improved Engine Cooling on the Ground especially in Hot Climates
4. Improved Reliability of the Ducati Rectifier/Regulator, especially in Hot Conditions
5. Improved Inside Cockpit Canopy Release Handle

An "Honorable Mention" item, which ranked high for everyone wanting to equip for ADS-B OUT FAA Compliance before 1/1/2020, is for CSA to provide Letters of Authorization to allow installation of ADS-B OUT Equipment, especially for the Non SkyView "2020" equipped, older configuration "Legacy" CRUZ CZAW manufactured Aircraft,  (including display of ADS-B IN Traffic and Weather on aircraft cockpit panel displays, with particular interest from owners of the oldest CZAW Legacy SportCruisers which have the smaller vertical dash height that will not accommodate a larger Garmin 696 or 796 cockpit GPS Map display). 

For more details on the SCFLIER Forum CRUZ Improvements Ranked list, please see the attached picture below.
All  of the items on this Ranked Improvements  list, including those that did not receive significant "voting" interest, are included in the attached picture below.

 

You may want to review the discussion on SCFLIER regarding many of the improvements - please see the second picture attached for the location of this topic on the SCFLIER Forum

 

go to "Forum Information & News"

 

and topic

 

"What Improvements would you like to see in the CRUZ Aircraft?".

 

The SportCruiser SCFLIER Forum members would appreciate very much if you would pass this "Desired CRUZ Improvements" ranked list on to employees representing Czech Sport Aircraft at Sebring US Sport Aviation Expo this week.  With over 220 worldwide members now participating in the SCFLIER Forum,  we believe the CRUZ aircraft improvement list represents many of the items desired by SportCruiser/PiperSport aircraft owners, Pilots, and potential new aircraft owners,    especially with regard to Czech Sport Aircraft Letters of Authorization (LOA) for modifications to their USA Based S-LSA Aircraft.

 

The same identical "What Improvements would SCFLIERs Like to see in the CRUZ Aircraft" list was provided to Patrick Arnzen of US Sport Aircraft (KADS Addison, Texas) Last July 2016,  and was presented to Czech Sport Aircraft at Oshkosh.

 

 However,  we at the SCFLIER Forum have not heard any response from CSA,  either Pro or Con on any of these proposed CRUZ SportCruiser/PiperSport aircraft improvements.   

 

Of particular interest is ADS-B OUT and IN solutions  (including display of ADS-B IN Traffic and Weather on aircraft installed cockpit panel displays) in order to meet the USA FAA January 1, 2020 mandate.

Thank You in advance for your help in communicating this list to representatives of Czech Sport Aircraft this week at Sebring.  For reference,  I will be posting this letter on the SCFLIER Forum,  so that other SCFLIER Forum Members who plan to attend the Sebring US Sport Aviation Expo this week are also aware of the desire for Cruiser Aircraft, Inc. to improve communication with the CSA Czech Republic LSA Factory on CRUZ Aircraft Improvements and CSA Letters of Authorization for their S-LSA aircraft.

 

regards

 

Dave

SCFLIER Forum Admin/Owner

[DavePilot]

In case anyone from Cruiser Aircraft, Inc or Czech Sport Aircraft is reading SCFLIER ....

One of the details that can be easily overlooked with an ADS-B OUT solution for older "Legacy" SportCruisers built by CZAW Czech Aircraft Works is that

WITHOUT FULL INTEGRATION of the ADS-B OUT/IN transceiver into other existing Avionics in the SportCruiser cockpit like the GPS MAP Display, Radio, intercom, and Auto-Pilot, the "Legacy" SportCruiser owners would lose many Safety/Operational features that owners of some of the newer aircraft (2010-2011 PiperSport, and recent Dynon SkyView ADS-B "2020" Equipped SportCruisers) currently enjoy.

An "incomplete" ADS-B OUT solution might include ONLY the addition of a GARMIN GTX345 "all in one" transponder, which is an awesome piece of equipment, but if the GTX345 Is only allowed to talk to say an iPad on the Pilot's lap,

  .....then the Legacy CRUZ CZAW aircraft owners:

• Would NOT have the ability to DISPLAY ADS-B IN Traffic and Weather on their GPS MAP panel mounted display,
• Would NOT have the ability to select a new airport, away from say a Thunderstorm covering their planned destination, and easily "DIVERT" To a new airport away from the Thunderstorm with a touch of the airport marker on the GPS MAP,
• Would NOT be able to, with a few "clicks" on their GPS MAP, automatically enter the new airport's CTAF COMM frequency in their radio's "flip flop" next frequency memory,
• And Would NOT be able to quickly engage their autopilot to have the autopilot fly the aircraft "Direct to" the NEW SELECTED "divert" airport in response to the thunderstorm.

One of our SCFLIER Members has investigated a GARMIN AERA660 cockpit panel GPS MAP INTEGRATED ADS-B OUT/IN total solution with the GTX345 for the "Legacy" CZAW older SportCruisers (that have a reduced vertical dash size) that WOULD INCLUDE all of these above features and many more.

Simply meeting the minimum USA FAA requirement of ADS-B OUT transmissions to only barely MEET the 1/1/2020 ADS-B OUT mandate misses the point on how capable an aircraft can be with an INTEGRATED ADS-B OUT/IN transceiver solution, fully INTEGRATED with all the existing cockpit Avionics such as data transfer to the COMM radio, GPS MAP (on the panel) for display of ADS-B IN traffic and weather, new destination interface to the AutoPilot, and Intercom alerts for traffic over the Pilot's headset as well as ADS-B IN Traffic display on their PANEL mounted GPS MAP ....

SAFETY can be dramatically improved when ADS-B OUT/IN equipment is INTEGRATED with the aircraft's existing Avionics, and displays for Traffic, Weather, Airport Diverts, and more.

iPads are useful as a backup, but an integrated panel mounted ADS-B OUT/In Solution can be dramatically safer and more effective in flight.

I know that many "Legacy" CZAW SportCruiser owners have been following Shawn's excellent research into the INTEGRATED Garmin Aera660/GTX345 ADS-B OUT/IN solution which was (near as we can tell) IGNORED by Czech Sport Aircraft when a Letter of Authorization was requested for Shawn's proposed Aera660/GTX345 integrated solution.

 

Also,  a "gotcha technical detail",  while the Garmin GTX345 is an outstanding "all in one" transponder and ADS-B OUT/IN transceiver,  it will NOT interface with and provide ADS-B IN Traffic and Weather data to the Garmin 696 GPS MAP unit installed in many older PiperSport and SportCruiser aircraft.   While some aircraft owners may be willing to upgrade their CRUZ aircraft to a Garmin 796 GPS Map unit,   the additional cost to allow ADS-B IN Traffic and Weather displayed on their new installed panel Garmin 796 GPS MAP unit would be well over $2K.  

(edited 6/19/2017)  Other ADS-B OUT/IN devices such as the Navworx ADS600-B ADS-B OUT/IN Universal Access Transceiver (UAT part number 200-0112)  can provide Mandate compliant USA FAA ADS-B OUT transmissions, and ADS-B IN traffic (only) data hard wired to the CRUZ GARMIN 696 GPS Map display,

and, even better, coupling a (now available-2017) Garmin GTX335 ADS-B OUT only solution including an internal WAAS GPS Position source with the long available Garmin Data Link GDL-39 line of ADS-B IN traffic and weather receivers WILL interface (hard wired) to the older Garmin 696 GPS Map for cockpit panel display of ADS-B IN Traffic AND Weather data on the CRUZ 696 GPS map display, and  also the GDL-39 will interface to the GARMIN Aera 796 and latest Aera 660 GPS Map display via Bluetooth wireless interface,

for an INTEGRATED ADS-B OUT solution with an ADS-B IN traffic and weather display solution for the CRUZ LSA aircraft line.

(The above paragraph was edited 6/19/2017 to reflect the now available Garmin GTX335 (ADS-B OUT only solution coupled with a GARMIN GDL-39 ADS-B IN receiver hard wired to the GARMIN 696 GPS MAP display) and the Garmin GTX345 (ADS-B OUT and IN to the 796 & 660 --not the 696-- GARMIN GPS Map displays) ).

 

An attempt at IMPROVED COMMUNICATION to Czech Sport Aircraft for the Letters of Authorization required on USA S-LSAs as the clock continues to tick down  towards the USA ADS-B OUT 2020 FAA deadline. USA S-LSA Aircraft that need to fly in Class C and Class B airspace will be GROUNDED without a CSA LOA...

To other SCFLIER "Legacy" CZAW aircraft Pilot/Owners - please jump in and comment from your perspective.....

D

[Jpcbank]

On 5/28/2016 at 9:04 AM, DavidKarenVV said:

From your friendly Admin. I would like to get some ideas going on potential Improvements and Upgrades for the Piper Sport / Sport Cruiser / PS-28 aircraft.

 

These could be new enhancements to be found in entirely new CRUZ aircraft, or Upgrades to existing aircraft (with a LOA --letter of authorization ) available from the manufacturer.

 

The topic list is wide open from new avionics, new Creature comforts, new flying capabilities, new graphics or paint options, and on and on.

 

My idea is that we would do this "Improvement Idea List" on the forum in a two step process:

 

1) over the next month or two, we would gather inputs from everyone* as to "what you would like" for the CRUZ aircraft

 

2) we would then Rank the ideas using a Forum Poll of all the topics and prioritize the ideas from "most wanted" to "least wanted" in a Ranked List from the SCFLIER OWNER OPERATOR community.

 

I think the improvement ideas should be considered independent of potential future cost, at least at the beginning.

 

And, all ideas must fit under the category of still meeting the Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) rules. So that would rule out adding JATO bottles for super short takeoff since the JATO bottles would exceed the 1320 lbs weight limit and not be a "single engine". And a modification for retractable landing gear or two additional passenger seats would not fit in the LSA category. Other than that, the sky is the limit.

 

I'll start the "idea" list with an idea of my own, and others can throw in their ideas, and after we get a large number of ideas, I will turn it into a FORUM POLL so we all* can each "vote" on our top three ideas and that will allow us to generate a ranked list.

 

* One comment - we do have some "manufacturer CSA" and "sales/support - US SPORT AIRCRAFT" members on the SCFLIER forum, so I think it best that these "insiders" don't provide input based on their inside knowledge... The idea list should be generated from owners and operators of the aircraft, or also folks that are considering buying a new CRUZ aircraft, or perhaps considering a competitor to the CRUZ that may have a feature NOT currently available on the CRUZ aircraft. I have the ability to control the inputs based on who is submitting them so please follow this comment so that the ideas come from the Owners/Operators and not the CSA Manufacturer or US SPORT AIRCRAFT employees.

 

Please limit your ideas to "somewhat reasonable" ideas. I.e., no ejection seats or USN carrier capable structures...remember the LSA rules when you submit ideas....

What is the difference between a "Sport Cruiser " and a "CRUZ" aircraft ? 

[DavePilot]

Jpcbank

In the USA, the CRUZ is the "type" of aircraft that corresponds with a 

"SportCruiser" and a "PiperSport".

when Air traffic Control (ATC) asks for our aircraft type over the radio, we respond Charlie Romeo Uniform Zulu - CRUZ   

We don't have any PS-28 aircraft in the USA,  but they would also be "CRUZ" type LSA's, just the name PS-28 Is used for the "same" LSA line of CSA aircraft sold in Europe.  

I use  the terms CRUZ, SportCruiser, PiperSport, and PS-28 all to refer to the same line of very nice Light Sport Aircraft built

by CZAW (the earlier "Legacy" SportCruisers) or currently CSA Czech Sport Aircraft for the PiperSport and latest production SportCruiser LSA's.  

 

Dave

[ShawnM]

Nothing, it's one in the same. It's how Dave identifies the plane on the forum. 

CRUZ is the ICAO "type designator" for our aircraft.

It's actually the "type designator" for all 4 versions. 

1. CSA SportCruiser
2. CSA PiperSport
3. CZAW SportCruiser
4. Piper PiperSport

Hope this explains things without adding yet more confusion. 

[ShawnM]

Oops, Dave responded while I was typing.

[admin]

Since it appears that there is 

IMPROVED COMMUNICATION NOW

between

SportCruiser/PiperSport/PS-28

Aircraft owners who are SCFLIER forum members

with Cruiser Aircraft Inc (thanks IZZY !!!)

and a Communications Link appears to be open now leading all the way to the Czech Republic CSA (Czech Sport Aircraft) Management,

 

I am Posting this item to inform new SCFLIER Forum members of the

extensive work and discussion on the SCFLIER Forum during Spring and Summer of 2016

to answer the question

”What Improvements Do Pilots/Owners Want in the SportCruiser/PiperSport/PS-28 aircraft ?”

when we last generated a Ranked Improvement List in June and July of 2016, the results were:

The "Top 5" Improvements desired by SCFLIER Forum Voters for the CRUZ S-LSA Aircraft are:

 

1. Letter of Authorization(s) from CSA to allow incorporation of the Dynon Angle of Attack Probe to feed AOA sensing for display with existing software in D-100/120 and SkyView Displays. (Angle of Attack Sensing and Display is a USA FAA Recommended Safety Improvement for all General Aviation Aircraft)
2. Improved Cruise Speed and Climb Performance. (Sure,  the CRUZ is only a 100 Hp LSA,  but the RV-12 LSA is faster and many LSA are lighter weight)
3. Improved Engine Cooling on the Ground especially in Hot Climates. (Get some more cooling air directed to the SportCruiser’s Rotax Cylinder Heat Sink Fins, especially on the Ground during extended taxi)
4. Improved Reliability of the Ducati Rectifier/Regulator, especially in Hot Conditions. (Get some cooling air to the SportCruiser’s Ducati mounting location)
5. Improved Inside Cockpit Canopy Release Handle. (the canopy release handle and latching system continues to play a role in CRUZ Accidents)

 

Also, at the top of the list in the summer of 2016 was

CSA Letter Of Authorizations for USA CRUZ S-LSA owners  

to add ADS-B OUT and IN equipment to older Non SKYVIEW equipped S-LSA aircraft operating in the USA.

 

THE 2016 RESULT ?

ZERO RESPONSE

from Czech Sport Aircraft.  

 

Of course the CRUZ S-LSA Improvements Desired list and Ranking of items can change over time.  Evolving Pilot/Owner input is important and may be revised with new input.

And,  there have been significant top Management changes at both Czech Sport Aircraft and Cruiser Aircraft after Oshkosh 2017.

And,  CSA did add "Sizzling Exterior Ramp Appeal" to the latest 2017/2018 SportCruiser aircraft with exciting new paint schemes,   and "Sizzling Interior Ramp Appeal" with the New Seats and Headrests,   Item 11 on our Ranked List.   

Now — what about items 1 through 10 ?       (There are 13 total SportCruiser LSA  Improvement Ideas with three ties at Ranked Items 6, 8, and 9).

 

It is apparent to me that

(just one example, Tecnam LSA is another)

VANS AIRCRAFT 

LISTENS and RESPONDS

with aircraft upgrades 

to their Pilot community

and Vans Aircraft

IMPROVES the design and safety and operational characteristics of their

RV-12  LSA

in response to Pilot Owner input.

 

Will Czech Sport Aircraft step up to the competition and do the same for CRUZ S-LSA Pilot Owners ?

The alternative course of action for CSA is awesome looking new CRUZ S-LSA paint schemes,  but no significant design changes affecting aircraft Performance, Safety, Reliability, ....more....to the aircraft underneath the new paint other than better seats and headrests.

D

 

 

 

 

 

[ronin5573]

On 1/31/2018 at 7:05 AM, admin said:

Since it appears that there is 

IMPROVED COMMUNICATION NOW

between

SportCruiser/PiperSport/PS-28

Aircraft owners who are SCFLIER forum members

with Cruiser Aircraft Inc (thanks IZZY !!!)

and a Communications Link appears to be open now leading all the way to the Czech Republic CSA (Czech Sport Aircraft) Management,

 

I am Posting this item to inform new SCFLIER Forum members of the

extensive work and discussion on the SCFLIER Forum during Spring and Summer of 2016

to answer the question

”What Improvements Do Pilots/Owners Want in the SportCruiser/PiperSport/PS-28 aircraft ?”

when we last generated a Ranked Improvement List in June and July of 2016, the results were:

The "Top 5" Improvements desired by SCFLIER Forum Voters for the CRUZ S-LSA Aircraft are:

 

1. Letter of Authorization(s) from CSA to allow incorporation of the Dynon Angle of Attack Probe to feed AOA sensing for display with existing software in D-100/120 and SkyView Displays. (Angle of Attack Sensing and Display is a USA FAA Recommended Safety Improvement for all General Aviation Aircraft)
2. Improved Cruise Speed and Climb Performance. (Sure,  the CRUZ is only a 100 Hp LSA,  but the RV-12 LSA is faster and many LSA are lighter weight)
3. Improved Engine Cooling on the Ground especially in Hot Climates. (Get some more cooling air directed to the SportCruiser’s Rotax Cylinder Heat Sink Fins, especially on the Ground during extended taxi)
4. Improved Reliability of the Ducati Rectifier/Regulator, especially in Hot Conditions. (Get some cooling air to the SportCruiser’s Ducati mounting location)
5. Improved Inside Cockpit Canopy Release Handle. (the canopy release handle and latching system continues to play a role in CRUZ Accidents)

 

Also, at the top of the list in the summer of 2016 was

CSA Letter Of Authorizations for USA CRUZ S-LSA owners  

to add ADS-B OUT and IN equipment to older Non SKYVIEW equipped S-LSA aircraft operating in the USA.

 

THE 2016 RESULT ?

ZERO RESPONSE

from Czech Sport Aircraft.  

 

Of course the CRUZ S-LSA Improvements Desired list and Ranking of items can change over time.  Evolving Pilot/Owner input is important and may be revised with new input.

And,  there have been significant top Management changes at both Czech Sport Aircraft and Cruiser Aircraft after Oshkosh 2017.

And,  CSA did add "Sizzling Exterior Ramp Appeal" to the latest 2017/2018 SportCruiser aircraft with exciting new paint schemes,   and "Sizzling Interior Ramp Appeal" with the New Seats and Headrests,   Item 11 on our Ranked List.   

Now — what about items 1 through 10 ?       (There are 13 total SportCruiser LSA  Improvement Ideas with three ties at Ranked Items 6, 8, and 9).

 

It is apparent to me that

(just one example, Tecnam LSA is another)

VANS AIRCRAFT 

LISTENS and RESPONDS

with aircraft upgrades 

to their Pilot community

and Vans Aircraft

IMPROVES the design and safety and operational characteristics of their

RV-12  LSA

in response to Pilot Owner input.

 

Will Czech Sport Aircraft step up to the competition and do the same for CRUZ S-LSA Pilot Owners ?

The alternative course of action for CSA is awesome looking new CRUZ S-LSA paint schemes,  but no significant design changes affecting aircraft Performance, Safety, Reliability, ....more....to the aircraft underneath the new paint other than better seats and headrests.

D

 

 

 

 

 

Just looking back on this old thread and wondering if anything changed with the suggestions that were given to the manafacturer....

1.NOPE no AOA still . this is inexcusable to not have with the Dynon option 

2.  YES KIND OF  with a Sensenich prop  just pitch it to 4 and it will cruise at 125 knots or pitch it to 2 and it will climb at 1300fpm. you still cant have both at the same time. 

3.  YES.  new Sportcruiser have improved cowling to help with hot climates.  Only on the newer planes 2017 and up. 

4.  NOPE same old Ducati and its problems that come with it. 

5. NOPE same canopy release and lock but we do have better alignment with guides they come out with which work really well. 

6. NOPE same control stick

7.NEITHER this didn't make sense not sure what that means.   what's cost effective in aviation 

8-1. NOPE same cockpit ventilation 

8-2 YES they moved the usb ports to the panel .. much better IMO  the 12v is also moved to the copilot side of the panel 

9-1 NOPE same seating postion .. new seats but they don't recline or move.

9-2 NOPE nothing to hold the canopy open …. just your elbow

10. NOPE same seats belts  

11-1  YES I would say the new interior has sizzling ramp appeal its subjective I guess. 

11-2  NOPE wing lockers still use a screw driver .. never bothered me until I seen how Bristell does it . 

12 YES KIND OF  they do have a way for LOAs now but there is no way that I am aware of to look at LOAs which have been granted. 

[ShawnM]

58 minutes ago, ronin5573 said:

Just looking back on this old thread and wondering if anything changed with the suggestions that were given to the manafacturer....

All I saw was a bunch of "NOPE" with a sprinkle of "SORT OF".

Did you honestly think they were going to listen to their existing customers and make changes? You did didn't you? 

I know you think I sound like a broken record at times, hell, most of the time, and how I call out CSA for their complete lack of customer support and that's ok but one day you'll look back and realize that maybe, just maybe, I might have been just a little bit right. Lip service from Cruiser Aircraft at airshows is just that. 

[ronin5573]

4 minutes ago, ShawnM said:

All I saw was a bunch of "NOPE" with a sprinkle of "SORT OF".

Did you honestly think they were going to listen to their existing customers and make changes? You did didn't you? 

I know you think I sound like a broken record at times, hell, most of the time, and how I call out CSA for their complete lack of customer support and that's ok but one day you'll look back and realize that maybe, just maybe, I might have been just a little bit right. Lip service from Cruiser Aircraft at airshows is just that. 

I just thought it was interesting to look at this again years later and see if anything changed. Some things that people wanted in the list … such as #2  is just silly when talking about light sport planes with max speeds of 120 knots.  #7 just doesn't make sense as the manufactured cant control the cost of any upgrade. 

[ShawnM]

Yup and at the time of the poll the Sensenich prop was already in use so that didn't technically change either. Yes, it's a LSA, were people expecting something faster? 

As for number 7, the factory already had a cost effective pathway to retrofit legacy aircraft, they passed the cost on to the owner.  It didn't cost CSA a dime so to them it was "cost effective" and they didn't need to address this issue, or any of the other ones. 

Do I really need to post what's in EVERY service bulletin.............again?

COSTS:
To be covered by the aircraft owner / operator.

[Deltafox]

As I announced my exit from the runway, I was alerted to low voltage. I ordered a new Ducati voltage rectifier from Certus. It would be my 5th replacement since new. 

[Velocity26]

2 hours ago, Deltafox said:

As I announced my exit from the runway, I was alerted to low voltage. I ordered a new Ducati voltage rectifier from Certus. It would be my 5th replacement since new. 

Didn't you change it out 3 weeks ago?

[Warmi]

2 hours ago, Deltafox said:

As I announced my exit from the runway, I was alerted to low voltage. I ordered a new Ducati voltage rectifier from Certus. It would be my 5th replacement since new. 

My understanding is that Ducati issues are really engine compartment heat issues -  there are lots of LSAs ( including mine ) that are on the original  rectifier without any problems ...

[Deltafox]

8 minutes ago, Velocity26 said:

Didn't you change it out 3 weeks ago?

I may have mentioned it here but didn't change it out. I was hoping a LOA would allow me to upgrade.  I'm averaging just under 200 hours per unit. I agree with the heat/cooling issue. 

[ShawnM]

3 hours ago, Deltafox said:

As I announced my exit from the runway, I was alerted to low voltage. I ordered a new Ducati voltage rectifier from Certus. It would be my 5th replacement since new. 

That's about one every two years Dave. I'd say you keep a spare on hand at this rate or put one on auto order with Amazon.   I changed mine to the Silent-Hektik (E-LSA only) and still have my original Ducati in the hangar as a backup if I ever need it.

[Velocity26]

1 hour ago, Deltafox said:

I may have mentioned it here but didn't change it out. I was hoping a LOA would allow me to upgrade.  I'm averaging just under 200 hours per unit. I agree with the heat/cooling issue. 

Dave,  forgive me for not identifying myself, this is Leo ... a/k/a "the student from Hell".  

The rectifier may get hot in flight, but I have not noticed a warning light in flight.  I usually see the warning while on the taxiway,  after a long flight. 

 

 

[Deltafox]

1 hour ago, Velocity26 said:

this is Leo ... a/k/a "the student from Hell". 

...at my age, I get to choose who I fly with. You are NOT the student from hell, you are "a chosen one".

 

Welcome to the group.

[WmInce]

Welcome aboard, Leo.😁

[DavePilot]

Opinion

it is easy to blame all of the Ducati Voltage Rectifier/Regulator  failures on the higher temperature  at the 2010 - present SportCruiser Ducati mounting location. 

And, the late model SportCruiser Ducati Mounting location is, in fact, HOT, especially on the ground with extended taxi times.

But if one looks closer at the details, Ducati has produced Rectifier/Regulator units with low quality soldered electrical connections to their  internal circuitry. 

And while low quality solder joints MAY “work OK” in cooler conditions, these lower quality solder connections  will eventually FAIL when subjected to heat and vibration . 

Also, about 2009, Ducati changed the recipe for their  internal “potting compound” that reduces  electrical components inside the Ducati from vibrating away from the circuit board,

 to a new black in color potting compound that gets significantly “looser” when hot.  

This new Ducati  potting compound allows the internal electrical components to vibrate against the poor quality solder joints, especially when hot.  And eventually the internal Ducati electrical connections will break free.  

This explains why “pre - 2009” green colored, stiffer when hot,  older Ducati potting compound filled regulator units may last longer than the post 2009 Ducati units.

Military Electronic equipment manufacturer’s use a pre-delivery Quality Control test called ESS, Environmental Stress Screening, where production units are subjected to accelerated levels of heat and vibration in a factory test chamber to ferret out production quality control problems like poorly soldered internal electrical connections.  Low quality solder connections are found and fixed before delivery with this ESS technique to ensure longer  term reliability of electronics for the very demanding Military temperature / vibration requirements. 

Commercial electronic equipment producers (like Ducati) oftentimes do not perform any kind of pre-delivery Environmental Stress Screening Quality Control tests on their production units. 

The SportCruiser designers can be “blamed” for mounting the Ducati in a hot location,  and for arranging the post 2009 SportCruiser installed Ducati’s heat sink fins perpendicular to the cooling air flowing  DOWN the engine firewall. A very inefficient heat transfer cooling fin arrangement - the internal Ducati electrical components get even hotter with the first, top heat sink fin blocking most of the cooling air.    

But if one looks further at the root cause of Ducati failures, the Ducati Rectifier /Regulator has had documented production solder quality control issues, and when coupled with a “spongy, looser”  (new  since 2009)  black colored potting compound, the low quality electrical solder connections inside the Ducati will come loose over Time.  

There are PLENTY of documented Ducati Rectifier/Regulator  failures for Rotax to admit,  and then to demand their long time Ducati supplier to investigate and solve, providing a better, more RELIABLE   DC Voltage regulator component for their excellent Rotax 912 engine’s Internal Alternator.  

Of course the SportCruiser Czech Sport Aircraft manufacturer can be blamed easily for mounting a known “heat sensitive”  Ducati electrical component in a hot environment.  

But the current design,  as produced  Ducati Rectifier/Regulator would not survive long  in most AUTOMOTIVE specified Temperature/Vibration Environments.  

And yet we fly this Ducati Voltage Rectifier/Regulator at night In an AIRPLANE, when our cockpit Avionics and Instrumentation, NAV/Strobe lights, Transponder, ADS-B OUT equipment (if equipped) and Com  Radio ALL depend on RELIABLE  12 volt DC power. 

 

Improvement ? Options :

1) Ducati production control could Look a little closer at their production line’s  solder quality,  and change back to the older “green color” stiffer internal potting compound to help units survive longer under heat and vibration. 

2) Ignore the Ducati production quality / design problems and we can simply blame the Czechs’ Hot Mounting location  for Ducati failures in late model (since 2010) SportCruisers.  

Dave

 

PS

or,

Option 3),  a third alternative, is for E-LSA Experimental SportCruiser aircraft owners, to buy a Form-Fit-Function replacement Rotax Rectifier/Regulator unit Built by Silent-Hektik.   A more sophisticated 12 Volt DC Regulator electrical design with higher build quality,  and more robust heat sink fins for reliable use in a hot environment.  

 

 

Details on Investigations of Failed Ducati Units’ Solder Production Quality Control and Potting Compound Production “Stiffness” Changes.  (New  ~ 2009) that Exacerbate the Ducati Solder Quality Issues under Heat and Vibration.  

Documented here on SCFLIER, and also on the Vans AF RV-12 Forum (Mike M).

 

Poor Ducati Internal Solder Quality Examples from analysis of a failed unit:

 

Measurement of the decreased stiffness of the Black Color, New since ~ 2009 Ducati Internal Potting compound

 

 

Examples of poor solder quality internal electrical connections inside a failed Ducati unit

 

Example of failed internal Ducati Electrical Connections due to Poor Solder Factory Quality Control - on the main SCR DC Regulator control’s   switching components

 

 

Standard Electronic Equipment and Component Temperature Ranges:

Commercial (the lowest grade) : 0 °C to 70°C (158 deg F), and some manufacturers also use 85 °C (185 deg F)  for the high temperature side of "Commercially" Rated Parts.   

      Note that the Rotax recommended  Maximum Temperature For the Ducati Rectifier / Regulator is 80 degrees C, 176 degrees F  

 

Industrial : −40 °C to 100 °C.    212 deg F on the high temperature side

Automotive : −40 °C to 125 °C.    251 deg F on the high temperature side

Military (the best, most Reliable grade) : −55 °C to 125 °C.    251 deg F on the high temperature side

 

 

 

ESS - Environmental Stress Screening

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_stress_screening

[ShawnM]

There's plenty of blame to go around between CSA and Ducati for the poor mounting location chosen by CSA and the poor materials used by Ducati. 

My 2007 Ducati regulator has the green potting and was mounted high up on the firewall in a cooler area that was in direct line with cool air coming into the top NACA scoops. It STILL works today, some 12 years later, and is my backup since I upgraded to the Silent-Hektik voltage regulator. It's been soda blasted, sprayed with Corrosion X and is in a ziploc back in my hangar in case of an emergency.