ShawnM

Hi Kurt and welcome to the forum. I’m over in Clearwater, home of the best beaches in the US, or so they say. 

Are you looking at a PiperSport or a SportCruiser in West Palm? I ask because the PiperSport is going to be a 2010 only and the SportCruiser could be as new as a 2019. I can possibly see why you’d want to keep a newer SportCruiser S-LSA as maybe you want to keep it and use it for flight instruction. If it’s a 2010 PiperSport then you will definitely want to convert it to experimental to be able to make some needed upgrades. Every piece of avionics in that airplane has been discontinued and you’d be better off as E-LSA for those upgrades.

As for parts for either of the airplanes, you could be waiting many, many months, if not years for crucial parts if you order from the factory. I’m not trying to scare you away from the airplane because it’s an amazing airplane rather just letting you know the hard truth about the factory and parts orders. It’s been extremely difficult over the last few years getting any response or parts from the factory for this airplane. I’m also a member of the European SportCruiser forum and they are having a difficult time just getting email responses from the factory, how hard do you think it’ll be getting parts?  The dealer here in the US will tell you they can get parts but how long will you have to wait?

All that said, the aircraft rarely needs factory specific parts. Anything for the engine you can get right here in Florida at Lockwood. As you know, it’s an all metal airplane and with your skill set there’s nothing on it you couldn’t fix/repair. There are procedures in the maintenance manual for making repairs.

I’ve owned my 2007 SportCruiser going on 11 years now and have not ever needed a factory specific part. I converted to E-LSA maybe 5 years ago to be able to make my SportCruiser safer and easier to fly. It was the best thing I did. You’ll have some people tell you that it will decrease the value but those people are dead wrong.

Good luck with your decision and if you need any more info about the SportCruiser it’s all here on the forum. We have a great bunch of guys on here with an abundance of knowledge to help answer any question you might have about it. The last thing I’ll say is if you decide to buy one have it looked over by someone who is familiar with the SportCruiser. And of course don’t let the seller recommend someone to do the pre-purchase inspection.  There have been some critical service bulletins over the years that you need to know about and other details to look out for. If you buy it right and cheap enough then none of those really matter as you’ll have money left in the bank to do those service bulletins as some of them are rather pricey. Again, good luck in your search.

FSDO is your local Flight Standards District Office, yours would be in Jax so a phone call would be better. They can explain your options.

Do you have a copy of the operating limitations for that plane? Those would be helpful as well.

I'm just a lonely ole "Sport Pilot" so IFR to me is I Follow Roads. That I can do very well.  You'd have to wait on better answers from our resident Private Pilots here.

If you believe ANYTHING coming out of the dealers mouth in Utah you're in for a rude awakening. The factory has NEVER wanted to support legacy aircraft and they continue to blow smoke up our "you know what" and it's been the same song and dance from them for nearly 8 years now. Nothing has changed in this time and nothing ever will. The parts they have on hand in Utah are to fix the broken aircraft in their flight school that get damaged on a regular basis. I know this first hand from the last A&P who worked for the dealer when it was here in Florida.

Dave our admin stated he's been waiting on a very simple part from the factory for over a year now, maybe longer. Still believe the folks in Utah?

All I'm saying is dont hold your breath waiting on the factory for anything, convert to E-LSA and move on from them. You'll save yourself a ton of headaches. Ask me how I know. 

A turbine option? Really? They dont even know how to put a 912is engine in a SportCruiser let alone a turbine. What a bunch of idiots over there.  This has to be the 4th or 5th "project" that they say is "coming soon" and we never see it. I'll bet you see "new seats" in the next SportCruiser before you see a turbine. A turbine wont matter to the LSA market anyway. 

Stepping down off my soapbox now and going to enjoy my weekend putting the finishing touches on my new Skyview panel upgrade. 

So basically any SportCruiser with glass panel(s), a moving map display (either integrated into the glass like Skyview or a separate GPS with moving map like a Garmin product) and an autopilot will be considered a TAA aircraft.

I'd also recommend that you read the CURRENT operating limitations for the plane you are wanting to buy. It will spell out what's allowed. There are some SportCruisers that are day, VFR only. Newer SportCruisers for training as a TAA aircraft will certainly have different operating limitations than a 2010 PiperSport.

When in doubt contact your local FSDO and pay them a visit with the current aircraft operation limitations in hand.

Hi Tom, congrats and welcome to the forum. The legacy aircraft are great planes. I have a 2007 based in Zephyrhills and I live in Clearwater. 

On 10/19/2023 at 4:55 PM, Velocity26 said:

Agreed, but indulging in said pancake breakfasts (along with $100 cheeseburgers) are not helping MY gross weight and I need my airplane to grow with me!!

I try real hard to not go back for seconds. Everything in moderation. 

11 hours ago, Velocity26 said:

Shawn,

If/when MOSIAC comes out, and eliminates the 1320 limit, would you (as a E-LSA) be able to recertify your aircraft to a higher gross weight limit? 

If you would say, your new gross is 1420 and your new dirty stall is 42 kts, assuming that complies with the new MOSIAC specifications. 

As I understand it you can do this with an E-AB (experimental amateur built) and you "the builder" are required to go back into the flight testing phase and notify your local FSDO of these tests. So, since I didn't build my plane the manufacture would have to conduct flight tests and certify that the aircraft is capable of a higher MTOW and I just don't see cruiser aircraft doing this for the legacy fleet. Given their track record I wouldn't hold my breath for them to do anything.

We are all just guessing here at MOSAIC, no one knows what, if anything, will happen with the existing fleet.

Again, none of the proposed changes will change my mission for my SportCruiser. I'm still going to go to pancake breakfasts, fly up and down the gulf coast of Florida and fly around for that $100 veggie burger. This is what I bought the plane for. 

Hi Bruzman and welcome. I've seen the Jabiru you are talking about and yes it was built as a 4 place aircraft. With a little ingenuity they made it fit the S-LSA category. Good for them.

As for the SportCruiser, I seriously doubt that cruiser aircraft will be retroactive with the new rules, whenever they come out, on the existing fleet of SportCruisers. They may "grandfather" in some of the very newest planes but don't hold your breath for it. I also seriously doubt that cruiser aircraft will do anything for the legacy fleet of SportCruisers. It's simply too much liability for them to take on. They can barely keep the doors open at this time and they are having a lot of difficulty fulfilling simple parts orders. And we all know that "R&D" costs a lot of money that they just don't have. If they ever sell a new plane in the US again after the new rules come out it may qualify for the higher MTOW but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it'll also have a higher MSRP to complement that higher MTOW.  

I personally don't care about a higher MTOW as it wont affect me either way. My legacy 2007 SportCruiser fit's my mission perfectly. 

47 minutes ago, Whizz said:

Thanks Shawn. Awesome advice. WILCO. Was actually gonna fly up to ZPH this weekend, but gotta work. 

Cheers. 
Whiz. 

Let me know when you do, I hear we have cheap fuel if you like that 100LL stuff in your Rotax.  

I'm heading up to Gainesville for the weekend and then up to Cannon Creek Airpark on Saturday to pick up my new Dynon goodies for my panel upgrade. Looking forward to meeting up sometime. 

Yes, great video and welcome to the forum. I'm in Clearwater and hangar my SportCruiser in Zephyrhills.

Here's your first bit of advice, I saw your pic of the plane on the ramp in Cross City with the canopy open in the Florida sun. Never leave the canopy open if the sun is behind the aircraft, it'll act like a parabolic mirror and start melting things or worse.  

Congrats on the purchase.

Welcome Buddy and good luck with the rest of your training. Going from a 172 to a SportCruiser will be like going from a moving truck to a Porsche. It’s an amazing airplane with a ton of ramp appeal and it’s a blast to fly. Lots of SportCruiser owners in Texas. Have you had a chance to fly one yet? Hopefully you’ll get some good info from this forum and we can help answer any questions you might have.

On 9/15/2023 at 4:28 AM, JDevoy said:

We came away with mixed feelings. The factory had 4 aircraft in production. They told us they make and sell between 3-5 a month and all go to flying schools. They haven't as old one to a private owner in memory.  Over half of sales are in USA. They only make a certified version now. 

Really? Just another fabrication to ease your worries/fear. I just looked at the most current FAA data and there are TWO 2023 SportCruisers in the USA and both registered to individuals. None registered to the flight school or "dealer" in Utah, I dont know what they are calling themselves now. One guy California and one guy in Utah, again, both registered to an individual. 

If "over half of sales are in the USA" where are they hiding them? Again, there are two 2023 SportCruisers here. According to them there should be over 30 here by now if half of them come here and they produce 3-5 a month.

Just more lies to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside James.  

The next newest SportCruiser that I could find from a quick scan of the data is a 2019. 

The saga continues.....

2 hours ago, admin said:

Why not test the parts system ?

it provides literally years of entertainment. 

D

If this is your idea of "entertainment" you're not doing it right. 

Seriously though, why?

1 hour ago, admin said:

I personally have had a simple SportCruiser center instrument panel bracket on order for well over a year with no response,  until recently when the USA Distributor at KBTF Utah instituted a web based Parts Ordering system,  that has shown great response from the KBTF USA Distributor,   but we are now moving into the second month waiting on the Factory Parts response…

Dave, can I ask why you simply dont make this bracket? I know you have the skills and resources......and you're E-LSA. Why on earth would you wait for something that may never come? Just curious.

Welcome mdkeiper, this is the best place to learn about everything SportCruiser. Are you currently a pilot or training? Sport pilot? Private pilot? There are several owners/members in Texas.

4 hours ago, Warmi said:

This year at Oshkosh I found a similar class plane that imho looks better than SportCruiser - Tucano replica.

I saw the Tucano replica at Sebring back in 2016 or 2017 and then again in Deland in 2021 if I remember correctly. The SportCruiser is still better looking but then again I'm a bit biased towards the SportCruiser.

Thanks for the pic Dale, she's a blank canvas waiting for some cool graphics. All aircraft should come that way so you can add your own graphics and change them when you get bored.  Not to mention, vinyl graphics weigh less than paint.

Welcome to the forum Dale. This is a great bunch of people with a lot of collective knowledge on everything SportCruiser.

6 hours ago, DavePilot said:

Jump on in !   The water is fine !

Well Dave, the Gulf is like a hot tub right now around Florida so if that's ok for Dale then yes jump on in. 

I just have to laugh at all the comments about customer support. This is not news. Everyone thought it was just me when I started my comments back in 2016 about the poor, no not poor, the complete and utter lack of support from the factory for legacy aircraft owners. I've been trying to tell you all this for the better part of 7 years.....and it might actually be sinking in now.  E-LSA anyone?

You do know the definition of insanity, yes? 

I've been a member of the Van's forum since 2014 and those guys love their planes. The plane and the company are both so loved there's a wait list to buy a plane from them. That should tell you something. A fellow forum member and SportCruiser owner is building a RV-10, it's gorgeous.  

47 minutes ago, Velocity26 said:

Other than giving instruction to others in your airplane, there are few downsides to going E-LSA. (I also hear that you will soon be able to teach in an E-LSA soon, as that is in the works)

Au contraire mon frère, as of February of this year many of the rules changed for flight instruction in experimental aircraft. The FAA rescinded LODA requirements for some instruction while some situations still require a LODA. If you have insomnia click the link below and you'll be asleep in no time. 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/08/2023-02600/notification-of-policy-for-implementation-of-the-james-m-inhofe-national-defense-authorization-act

Paul Hamilton also has some good reading on his website about using an E-LSA for flight training and the rules around it.

There is no downside to converting to E-LSA, only advantages. 

18 minutes ago, FlyAgain said:

If I have to go E-LSA that means I have to become a pseudo-mechanic, a parts fabricator and an EAA "hanger project manager."

I guess there may be some more misinformation out there now, this time in regards to converting to E-LSA. Converting to E-LSA does not mean you have to change anything about your current maintenance schedule or who does the work or where you get parts for your SportCruiser. That is if you can actually get them. 

You can continue on "business as usual" with your current LSRM / mechanic. You don't need to do ANY maintenance yourself, turn any wrenches, make any parts, change your own oil or become a project manager. And your current mechanic or LSRM will continue to do your annual condition inspection. Just because you converted to experimental does not change any of that. I know a few RV owners who don't even dare to get their hands dirty with their own experimental aircraft. 

When it comes time to upgrade those aging avionics, guess what? You taxi over to your local avionics shop and have them install ANYTHING you want. You can install all the latest and coolest gadgets. You don't have to do it yourself or beg the factory for permission. You want some real nice LED lighting to replace the old school strobes on your plane? You can have those installed by your favorite mechanic as well. And nope, you don't need permission anymore because you are E-LSA. You want a new DUC propeller? You can have that installed by your mechanic also. All that and you didn't even get your hands dirty. See how easy that was? 

The freedom that comes with converting to E-LSA has nothing to do with you the owner/operator now having to do all your own maintenance, repairs, fabricating parts or anything else. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

If one choses to do all that then they have that option also. I agree it's not for everyone. I chose to do it myself because I love doing it and I know with out a doubt that the maintenance was done correctly and nothing was skipped or glossed over as "it's good enough". 

Some people like to tinker and fix their own stuff, others like to fish. 

2 hours ago, admin said:

Shawn

of course you are correct, sir.

the lack of factory customer support is NOT new.  This factory support problem has been a continuing problem since about 2011,  and especially a greater problem since Patrick and the awesome folks at US Sport Aircraft (now ThrustFlight) finally came to their senses and decided life was too short to try and help improve the CONTINUING Czech Factory Support problem scenarios.

Unfortunately, I am at the point that I can no longer recommend ANYONE to buy an S-LSA SportCruiser aircraft, 

UNLESS

the person buying a new S-LSA SportCruiser has the desire, capability, resolve, and resources to immediately convert their new aircraft to an Experimental E-LSA Special Airworthiness Certificate in the USA.

Going E-LSA with a new SportCruiser is really the only viable way to keep the SportCruiser Upgraded and Competitive with the rapidly evolving USA S-LSA Light Sport Aircraft Market.    There may actually be a case to be made that the E-LSA SportCruiser option easily PAYS OFF vs buying a new more expensive Bristell S-LSA.   But the E-LSA aircraft owner investment required (time and money) in doing these upgrades themselves (with excellent Mechanic support)  is SIGNIFICANT. 
 

Technology moves on - with or without Factory Built SportCruiser S-LSA aircraft !

 

This Lack of Factory Support situation makes me sad.  There is money to be made by the Czech SportCruiser factory organization to SELL FACTORY REPLACEMENT PARTS for S-LSA Factory built aircraft !

If I were buying a new S-LSA aircraft today,  the SportCruiser would NOT be on my Short List today,  as it WAS in 2010.

However,  I do love the challenge and REWARDS possible with continuing to upgrade my E-LSA SportCruiser aircraft, and I will continue to do so as long as possible.

Dave

Still a STRONG SportCruiser Aircraft SUPPORTER !

Yup, I agree and in my opinion an E-LSA SportCruiser is more valuable than a S-LSA SportCruiser today. All the hard work of converting it and then any upgrades or future upgrades only increase the value.

Anyone stuck with a S-LSA SportCruiser is.....well.....just stuck at this time. 

It's not a matter of "IF" those with a S-LSA will convert to E-LSA but a matter of "WHEN". 

You seem surprised by this Dave?  

I've been talking and texting with James in Scotland and he's certainly frustrated with the factory after they initially responded with a several page spreadsheet with parts and prices to repair his plane.

It's been like this for the entire 10 years I've owned my plane. I finally had enough and in 2016 I converted to E-LSA. The best thing ANY owner could do is to convert to E-LSA and give the factory the middle finger. There's no part on this plane I cant make, have made for me or buy off the shelf.  

It's really sad that it's come to this for such a beautiful and fun airplane. 

If I've said it once I've said it a million times, I love my plane but I hate the factory. 

Good choice AMZ, there are better choices for plane out there. I looked for almost two years to find my plane. It's wasn't "exactly" what I wanted but it is now. Also, don't be afraid to convert to E-LSA, it'll be the best thing you can do for any SportCruiser. It's just a little paperwork with the FAA and you'll be free. 

Have a look at this map (if you haven't seen it already) from Rotax to find service in your area. You are correct, not many listed in SOCAL but plenty just north of you. You can easily fly up to them for service if needed.

https://rotaxirmt.com/locator

Thanks Dave, I corrected my post. 

I guess it depends on ones comfort level and the depth of their pockets but a LSA with 6000 hours from a flight school just scares the bejesus out of me. And a SportCruiser to boot? No way.

We all know how fragile the landing gear is on a SportCruiser. Add to that the firewall reinforcement SB and the rivet to bolt SB on the wings, and 6000 hours of student abuse.....I'd certainly pass on this plane. But that's me.

Welcome AMZ and good luck with your training. 

You want guidance? A 6000 hour SportCruiser with an overhauled engine that has been used for training..........RUN LIKE HELL FROM THIS AIRPLANE !!!!!!!

There are so many things in your post that are red flags to me. Reinforced landing gear, are you kidding me? How many times has the engine been overhauled or replaced? At least 3 if it has 6000 hours and was used for training. The logs will tell you everything........maybe.

Unless it's been converted to a E-LSA after being used as a S-LSA for training this plane sounds like it has modifications to it that render the airworthiness certificate invalid. Has it been reregistered as a E-LSA? 

I wouldn't touch this plane with a 10 foot pole and if it's priced for more than $35K it's too much.

Even if you are still considering this plane PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do an EXTENSIVE inspection on this plane with a LSRM who KNOWS the SportCruiser. And start with the landing gear. You need to remove the main gear for a thorough inspection because you can't see the cracks in the fiberglass while they are still mounted to the plane. Then an airframe inspection followed by removing the wings and inspecting the spars.

Also, PLEASE don't ask an IA anything, this is a light sport aircraft. And because it is a LSA, it'll never be "airworthy". That's a term for certified aircraft. Talk to a LSRM who know light sport and Rotax.

I urge you to keep looking for a much more suitable aircraft. This plane may be in your budget on the surface because of the purchase price but you will be spending thousands and thousands more on other things you aren't aware of. I could go on for days as to what you need to inspect on a plane with this many hours and abuse from training. You yourself said it's "rough" and that's just what you can see. There are dozens of SB's that you need to make sure have been completed and that's just the beginning. 

Just my 2¢

12 hours ago, Warmi said:

I do follow pretty much all the rules even though I do think a lot of it is nonsense , at least in terms of non intended outcomes … I do draw a line sometimes for trivial stuff ( for instance I would not give a crap about getting LOA to fly without wheel pants( something that is apparently required for Flight Design owners )  and stuff like that … at the end of the day it is my plane.

It's because of this kind of thinking that new SportCruiser owners like Bill end up with a S-LSA that have modifications that are not authorized by the manufacture. I'm simply trying to educate a NEW owner or a SportCruiser that the manufacturer sucks because they don't allow ANY changes to S-LSA SportCruisers but they make the best E-LSA on the market. 

This is why I asked him to read his "operating limitations" before he goes any further down the rabbit hole. It's far easier to modify a "certified" Cessna aircraft than it is to modify a SportCruiser. 

12 hours ago, Warmi said:

If I owned a SportCruiser I would simply go ELSA - life is too short for dealing with nonsense like that …

This is true as it's the only option for modifications to a SportCruiser.

You know more than anyone Warmi that we've had this discussion here numerous times but since Bill is a NEW owner we find ourselves having this discussion again.